Limits to how observant we're willing to become
Some months ago, on the recommendation of Larry and Malka Esther Lennhoff, I read Azriela Jaffe's What Do You Mean, You Can't Eat in My Home? Ms. Jaffe goes into great detail describing how one can bring disposable pans, request kosher ingredients and check them, kasher pots, supervise the cooking, etc., to enable one to eat in the home of a relative or close friend who doesn't keep kosher.
So I know that it's doable.
I just refuse to do it.
Not just because it would be a major pain, but because there's a limit to how much "holier-than-thou" I'm comfortable with being. I imagine that most Orthodox and Observant Conservative Jews would not describe strict observance in those terms, and I hope you aren't offended, but that's how it would feel to me.
And even though egalitarian issues would, obviously, have a greater effect on me, since I'm of the female persuasion, my husband may be even more hesitant than I am to become Orthodox, given our differing manners of observance.
Bottom line:
We refuse to skip a birthday party just because it's being held in a non-kosher restaurant. (My husband would have been there, too, if he hadn't had a class to teach).
We'll continue to join our non-kosher friends for their break-the-fast after Yom Kippur, since they go out of their way to make steamed salmon for us kosher folk.
We'll continue to eat the homemade latkes in the home of Chanukah-party hosts who keep what they consider to be a kosher kitchen, but who cook prepared dairy products (such as dairy lasagna) without a hechsher (seal indicating that a product is supervised to ensure that it's kosher).
We'll continue to spend Shabbat/Sabbath with friends who turn lights on and off all day, even though that means that we, ourselves, will have to violate Shabbat by turning lights on (unless we want to go to the bathroom/WC in the dark).
Even if we decide to join an Orthodox synagogue and become more observant in many ways, will we ever be 100% observant?
Frankly, no.
So I know that it's doable.
I just refuse to do it.
Not just because it would be a major pain, but because there's a limit to how much "holier-than-thou" I'm comfortable with being. I imagine that most Orthodox and Observant Conservative Jews would not describe strict observance in those terms, and I hope you aren't offended, but that's how it would feel to me.
And even though egalitarian issues would, obviously, have a greater effect on me, since I'm of the female persuasion, my husband may be even more hesitant than I am to become Orthodox, given our differing manners of observance.
Bottom line:
We refuse to skip a birthday party just because it's being held in a non-kosher restaurant. (My husband would have been there, too, if he hadn't had a class to teach).
We'll continue to join our non-kosher friends for their break-the-fast after Yom Kippur, since they go out of their way to make steamed salmon for us kosher folk.
We'll continue to eat the homemade latkes in the home of Chanukah-party hosts who keep what they consider to be a kosher kitchen, but who cook prepared dairy products (such as dairy lasagna) without a hechsher (seal indicating that a product is supervised to ensure that it's kosher).
We'll continue to spend Shabbat/Sabbath with friends who turn lights on and off all day, even though that means that we, ourselves, will have to violate Shabbat by turning lights on (unless we want to go to the bathroom/WC in the dark).
Even if we decide to join an Orthodox synagogue and become more observant in many ways, will we ever be 100% observant?
Frankly, no.
posted by Shira Salamone at 9:10 AM
15 Comments:
I totally see your point in this. Wouldn't it be a violation of being a gracious guest to be so, as you put it, "holier than thou" anyway? And wouldn't that be a transgression?
I have turned this issue over in my mind more than once as well.
Techelet, I now find myself in the rather interesting position of being more observant than almost all of my friends, some of whom I've known for over 30 years. This creates some awkward situations, as you can see from my post. If our buddies are willing to grill up some Hebrew National franks for us, I'd rather eat them and keep everyone happy than worry about the hechsher and/or the kashrut of their barbecue grill. I appreciate the fact that our friends with non-kosher kitchens are making an effort to accommodate our kashrut, and don't want them or our friends with kosher kitchens that are not quite up to our standards to feel that whatever they do is not good enough.
The bottom line is that I'm concerned that being perceived as "holier than you" is a good way to lose friends, which I don't want to do.
WADR, if you are outside of an Orthodox community, as you are, I don't believe you have the right to inquire into someone else's kashrut and whether "its up to your standards". If a friend tells you they keep kosher, you should rely on that. I think that failing to do so becomes a serious breach of derech eretz.
Now, if you see these folks preparing unquestionably non-kosher food (mixing meat and dairy, pork/shellfish, etc.) then its reasonable not to eat there. But if you're eating dairy, and the lite ranch dressing is unhekshered (so neither you nor I would buy it for home consumption), is this really an issue you want to divide you and your friends?
"If a friend tells you they keep kosher, you should rely on that. I think that failing to do so becomes a serious breach of derech eretz."
TOTJ Steve, I agree that that's an appropriate approach for a Conservative Jew. I have no interest in breaching derech eretz/common courtesy.
"if you see these folks preparing unquestionably non-kosher food (mixing meat and dairy, pork/shellfish, etc.) then its reasonable not to eat there." I don't think that any of our friends are quite that clueless, but my own approach would be to eat something else there, rather than abstaining. For example, our minhag/custom is to wait three hours between fleishig/b'sari/meat and milshig/chalavi/dairy. I've been known to bring a parve dessert when I know in advance that the host is serving a dairy dessert only one hour after a chicken dinner.
I grew up in a kosher home, but waiting between meat and dairy was not something I learned (although in retrospect, my father did wait 3 hours, probably because that's how he grew up).
My wife, kids & I decided to include the 3-hour wait when we made a collective decision to be more consistent about our kashrut several years ago. As my daughters are now teenagers, they know that observance is up to them -- there is no kosher police in my house. Remarkably, they take great pride in being rather strict about these things. Consequently, my parents now make a conscious effort to have a pareve dessert at the table (or fruit) for a meat meal. But it doesn't stop grandma from offering ice cream to go with that pie, and my kids have no problem politely declining even while my niece and nephew, with whom they are close, indulge. My sister-in-law still believes we're religious extremists, and my mother fears we'll stop eating in her house (we won't), but other than that it all works fine.
I second TOJS's recommendation. If someone tells you that they keep Kosher, you are supposed to trust them unless you have reason otherwise. Where things get trickier is when someone tells you that they have a Kosher home.
Kosher home is a strong cultural identifier in Judaism, but to my knowledge has no basis in Halacha. Either one is Shomer Kashrut (observes Kosher law), or not. If one is "eating out," then under Halacha, they aren't Shomer Kashrut. Since they don't observe the Mitzvah, you can't rely on them as mashgiach in their own home.
The details of this I do not pretend to understand. It's not a detail I'm terribly strict on, but I have friends that are... however, they have assured me that it isn't transferable... So while I eat in kosher homes that aren't necessarily Shomer Kashrut, that means I'm violating a stringency, not a core component of Kashrut (since the food isn't actually not Kosher), and they can still eat in my home.
This sort of "meta-Halacha" goes WELL beyond my learning.
Shira, can you find a decent Halacha Shiur in your area? I found that when I did some learning, I realized that the rules aren't as strict as I thought, so I was able to drop a lot of what seemed to be "holier than thou" behavior. Basically, we all easily know the "correct" behavior, it's cultural transmitted, but the actual Halacha is the laws of loopholes, and I can usually find one to hop through to avoid problems for myself and my family.
Miami Al: What you cited is not a chumra, but rather a Rambam that says that if one outright doesn't believe in a mitzva, you cannot trust them to carry it out (eg. if someone openly says that they do not believe in God, they cannot make minyan). I had a shaila about someone who professes not to believe in kashrut, but is very stringent at home as well as outside. The rav told me that kashrut is not a matter of belief but practice, and therefore I could continue to eat in the person's home.
I followed up by asking if the person eats in vegan restaurants (where there is an issue of grape products in dressing or sauce) or restaurants where the mashgiach is known to be sketchy, can I still eat in their house. The rav said that if in their understanding, they are keeping kosher (and indeed there are instances where it probably would be permissible if you know what to eat...), you can trust their kashrut at home.
Shomer shabbos issues, another can of worms.
In the words of that great sage John Lennon: "whatever get you thorugh the night"
"Remarkably, they take great pride in being rather strict about these things."
Lucky you, TOTJ Steve. *Our* kid couldn't care less about Jewish observance. :( We're hoping he'll change his mind, at some point.
"Shira, can you find a decent Halacha Shiur in your area?
To be honest, Miami Al, I've never looked for one, but now might be a good time. Suggestions, anyone? Please keep in mind that I'm not fluent in Hebrew and have never studied Talmud.
"I found that when I did some learning, I realized that the rules aren't as strict as I thought, . . ."
That's funny, Larry Lennhoff said the same thing.
" . . . so I was able to drop a lot of what seemed to be "holier than thou" behavior."
I'd love to!
" . . . the actual Halacha is the laws of loopholes, and I can usually find one to hop through to avoid problems for myself and my family."
Knowing the loopholes would be really helpful.
"The rav told me that kashrut is not a matter of belief but practice, and therefore I could continue to eat in the person's home."
RivkaYael, that's certainly good to know, as I'm in that category, myself.
For the record, I use only grape products with a hechsher at home, and, since I rarely drink, I'd never order wine in a restaurant anyone. If the restaurant served kosher crackers but the jam didn't have a hechsher, I'd skip the jam. And I'm using only plain veggie oil on my salads these days, so salad dressings wouldn't be a problem. As for sauces, I really hadn't give much thought to their ingredients. But since I'm not planning on eating cooked food in non-kosher restaurents anymore, I don't think that'll be an issue.
"Shomer shabbos issues, another can of worms."
Gevalt, are you right! We've occasionally spend Shabbat with friends who don't turn the lights on before Shabbat, and, short of just not visiting them anymore on Shabbat, which we're not willing to do, we haven't found a good, halachic work-around for that. For openers, it's thoroughly unpleasant to go to the bathroom in the dark. For closers, it's actually dangerous to walk around an unlit room, especially for me. Not only have I already broken both wrists (the left one 3 times!), but my mother broke her hip and was dead less than six months later, so, for me, this is a pikuach nefesh/life-or-death issue. Either I stop visiting non-Shomer Shabbat friends on Shabbat, or I turn on the lights on Shabbat. Some choice. :(
JD, that doesn't work for me--I'm not capable of being indifferent to Jewish tradition.
Shira,
"To be honest, Miami Al, I've never looked for one, but now might be a good time. Suggestions, anyone? Please keep in mind that I'm not fluent in Hebrew and have never studied Talmud."
Most Shiurm outside the Yeshiva are in English, especially ones for adults and are either for women or coed environments.
Happy medium should be a rule for everyone and everywhere. What good will this "observance" do for people who do not share but respect your views? You'll cause nothing but offence.
Magda, concerning those who "do not share but respect your views," I'm trying *not* to cause offence.
Miami Al, thanks for the reassurance. I'm at the baby-step stage.
I have read the ook and must admit I felt a little uncomfortable reading about it. If I imitated her, I'd feel I would embarass the people I'd be with whether they be my parents or friends.
Thanks for dropping in.
IlanaDavida, I agree. I feel that following the book's instructions would not only make me feel ridiculously self-conscious, it would also make my host(s) feel both imposed upon and judged (and I don't know which is worse). I'd rather eat at home (due to a "prior commitment"--thanks to Miami Al for that idea) or bring my own food than put myself and my hosts through such a complicated process. It's more likely that I'll just keep compromising. As long as they serve me kosher meat and skip the shellfish, I can live with not worrying about the pots. In all honesty, I'm not ready to be quite *that* observant.
Thanks for posting such lovely photos.
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